Income System

Do you think you usually get enough money or are you broke all the time?
In old versions you would have more money than you would ever need but with the new upkeep (5g 5m per food) system some people say that they aren't getting any money at all.

There are a few ways to fix this:
The easy way - Decrease upkeep
The medium way - increase income (by how much?)
The hard way - decrease unit pricing (all or just some [elf/dwarf] and by how much)

Thoughts?

The easy way is the best way, go with 3g and 3m per food. That extra two really adds up, and should be enough. You can also increase the income by a slight slight slight amount to make it so they're not making too much money, but making enough money.

Many people complained about the low income in the 2 games i hosted today.
I think to reduce the upkeep to 3 will help a little bit, but will still be like 900g-900m if u have 300 food. You would need ¼ of the map to have enough income.

If you have 300 food, I think you deserve to have 1/4 of the map to have enough income lol.

sure but it's hard for orc players, as they need to mass more then others, because they mostly need to fight against several people.
I think u need to make Special upkeep, depanding on the units\races...

But then, it will flag orcs as "overpowered" as orcs isn't just played for orc invasion. Some people actually roleplay as a "faction" of orcs.

Yep, it will be hard to find the right way here...

I would appreciate if u remove the food cost of the Towers, and change it into a maximum of build able buildings, because I don't like that Towers need food.
I think 10-15 would be a good amount, that you can even save a bigger border properly.

Towers should cost some food, there are "Archers" in there. Unless you want it so towers don't cost any food, an alternative would be that you have to make a unit 'load up' in there to make it be able to shoot arrows, otherwise it's just a tower.

Maximum buildable towers really cripple those who like decorative towers, as people make towers mainly for decoration.

Savager wrote:

Maximum buildable towers really cripple those who like decorative towers, as people make towers mainly for decoration.

10-15 towers need 30-45 food that doesn't help the decorators, if they have like 100 food at all...

If they have 100 food, that's like. . . 10 control points a little bit less? You don't need 10-15 towers to decorate that. Heck, one village gives enough food for five towers.

I see we wont find a solution about the tower-thing^^

Well the topic was about the general food upkeep, and I am interested in witch way it will be changed...
Because People witch like to be a "vassal" or start on one of the small islands, have usually very low amount of income, if they build some units they loose all of it to upkeep, and before you ask, yes that happens often .

Obviously, duh they loose all their money to upkeep that's why we have this thread in the first place. Also, vassals usually are just paying taxes to their liege lord rather than building their own armies. The liege lord was the one giving them protection in the feudal system.

I do have a question for the three ways you could fix it.

3- How will moving unit price costs down help against upkeep? Once upkeep is fixed, the only race I think needs some downgrading is the dwarves since games tend to not go toward the renaissance and gunpowder era, they could only use their dwarven warriors.

2- Increasing income would be one of the ways to fix upkeep, but if it's going to be harder, I recommend doing the 1st way instead.

1- The first way is probably going to be the best way to fix it quickly, down to 2-2 or 3-3 upkeep.

I do have another solution, but it would go towards the hard way. I suggest that each different unit has it's own upkeep.

Examples would be:
Levy 1/1
Regular Soldiers 2/2

Kind of something like that, which makes it so people get smart on how they build their army.

Savager wrote:

Obviously, duh they loose all their money to upkeep that's why we have this thread in the first place. Also, vassals usually are just paying taxes to their liege lord rather than building their own armies. The liege lord was the one giving them protection in the feudal system.

I do have a question for the three ways you could fix it.

3- How will moving unit price costs down help against upkeep? Once upkeep is fixed, the only race I think needs some downgrading is the dwarves since games tend to not go toward the renaissance and gunpowder era, they could only use their dwarven warriors.

2- Increasing income would be one of the ways to fix upkeep, but if it's going to be harder, I recommend doing the 1st way instead.

1- The first way is probably going to be the best way to fix it quickly, down to 2-2 or 3-3 upkeep.

I do have another solution, but it would go towards the hard way. I suggest that each different unit has it's own upkeep.

Examples would be:
Levy 1/1
Regular Soldiers 2/2

Kind of something like that, which makes it so people get smart on how they build their army.

In medieval times vassals paid taxes to their lords and were obliged to raise their troops to aid them in their wars, in the medieval times (since everyone hates renaissance) most people don't take into consideration that more or less EVERYONE relied on levies (aka conscripts), no professional armies; they would raise their armies for war, then disband them right after.

I guess part of the problem is that most people want to field 300 food professional standing armies and then realize they trained too many troops.

So to simulate and maybe take a -small- load off income wise we could do this:

Levies cost nothing but food, both ranged and normal cost 1 food. This would mean that the player can raise levies during a war, pay the upkeep and then disband them after the war and they wouldnt lose that much money - this would mean there will be more peace and ceasefires instead of 'complete conquest' wars as the upkeep puts a strain on your economy.

This would also mean that there should be a consequence for having too much upkeep on your ass, while making random units hostile could be annoying as fuck (especially since everyone is borderline low income) i'm thinking of just removing the unit to simulate 'desertion'

While the income right now is 5g 5m meaning you'll be paying 1500 gold and materials(lumber) per minute max food which is a mere sum compared to the infinity money people would get beforehand.

Here's some statistics on how much 1 food units a cp can handle (threshold) before they go under.
Take is as food for thought.

CP Type-Southern/Northern food threshold
Village-3/2
Town-5/4
Keep-6/5
Castle-6/5
City-8/6

Unit Name-Cost to train-Time until cost is met by upkeep
Levy-35g-7mins
Man-at-arms/pikemen/longbow-50g-10mins
Archer/Crossbow-40g-8mins
Greatswordsman-85g-17mins
Dismounted Knight-80g-16mins
Mounted Knight/Cuirasser/Handgunner-100g-20mins
Supply Horse-120g-24mins
Dismounted Heavy Knight/Arquebusier-135g-27mins
Mounted Heavy Knight-175g-35mins
Harquebusier-190g-38mins
Cannon-350g-70mins
Repeater Cannon-500g-100mins

As you can see buying the most common unit (man at arms at 50g) takes 10 mins of accumulated upkeep to cost you another 50g.

50g would be equal to 10 northern villags, 2.5 northern towns, 2 northern castles/keeps, 1.66 cities per turn.

300 food upkeep: (4g/4m - 1200g/m per turn) (5g/5m - 1500g/m per turn)
Thats 120 villages/sea trade route
60 towns/major sea trade
48 keeps/castles
40 cities


To handle the military need i'm suggesting that maybe:
we keep the upkeep or maybe reduce it by one
to simulate the medieval experience everyone likes make the levies cost no gold and materials are at least drastically reduced (like 5g) -> would only work with the current or higher upkeep costs to provide a need of 'disbanding' (?)
maybe reduce some of the more expensive unit's prices?
create more [economic] buildings and a system where people can make them (a bank makes more than a bloody castle for goodness sake!) -> will allow people to 'upgrade' their economy.



Thoughts?

Admin wrote:

[...]
create more [economic] buildings and a system where people can make them (a bank makes more than a bloody castle for goodness sake!) -> will allow people to 'upgrade' their economy.



Thoughts?

I like the idea to give the players an "economy-builder" witch can build banks, markets and stuff.
What about a time limited build, like 1 bank/market/... every 30-45 minutes.

I don't think timed-limit is possible, if it is that's cool, but instead you could have it so there is just a bank limit.

Maybe an economy builder can only be given by by the GM but that would make it no different from the GM giving it themselves, probably would make it so an economy builder can made by players themselves or...

What about 'build spots' in each town and city which basically work as capture points and can be upgraded? Would make it so it is fairly 'balanced' and avoid economy spam.
^(Would require village income buff to balance the build spots out)

Thoughts?
What do you guys think about the statistics I used + the no cost levy idea

Admin wrote:

Maybe an economy builder can only be given by by the GM but that would make it no different from the GM giving it themselves, probably would make it so an economy builder can made by players themselves or...

Yeah the Players must be able to build the Eco-Builder themselves if u add him.

Admin wrote:

What about 'build spots' in each town and city which basically work as capture points and can be upgraded? Would make it so it is fairly 'balanced' and avoid economy spam.
^(Would require village income buff to balance the build spots out)

I tought about that too, like at the Map Europe at War 1.04

Admin wrote:

What do you guys think about the statistics I used + the no cost levy idea

The idea is good, will bring more action, even for players with few income.

How about "Economy" plots in major cities and towns, and enable you to "upgrade" the plots into banks, markets, etc?

Edit: Woops, I just read your last post. That means I approve it. Lol